Women In The Ministry

2/20/2011

Wives Submitting To Husbands and The Role of Women In The Ministry...

Won't this be an interesting post!

I was asked recently on whether woman can teach in church or not, so I decided to write out my thoughts. As with all my writings, thank you for reading, but I hope you'll do your own research with an open heart and mind. We should all be searching for the truth – not just the validation of our opinions.

From my perspective, I believe we have multiple topics here that should be addressed individually:

Ministry – This isn't some lofty position, but rather, any act of service to another. Giving a glass of water to someone who's thirsty is ministry at that moment.

Culture and Society – Some believe that certain parts of the Bible aren't relevant to us because of cultural differences. Is that what God said? Or did he say, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35) His Word trumps culture everywhere, every time.

Wives Submitting To Husbands – Back in Genesis, God made man from the dust of the earth. Then he saw that it wasn't good idea for man to be alone, so he made women from the man and for the man. Whether you like how God did things isn't the point; That's how he did it. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with God.

Now, before you ladies roll your eyes and leave, please hear me out and read this entire post because you may not have heard what I'm about to say before.

Because of disobedience back in the garden of Eden, God cursed the ground, the serpent, women and men. Here's what every woman has Eve to thank for:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16)

You've probably noticed that the pain in childbearing hasn't changed...well...neither has that other pain. Now here are the specific verses dealing with women teaching in the church:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Remember, culture isn't the point. The curses fell upon men and women long before our unique cultures developed. So what are the real issues here in these verses?

Obedience. Learning. Subjection. Usurping Authority.

Notice how Paul puts it in the second verse. He says, “But I suffer not a woman to teach...” He didn't allow it. That's not the same as “Thus saith the Lord...”

Anyway, here's my take on things: According to the scriptures woman are to be subject to their husbands. If a husband doesn't want their wife to speak or teach in church, they shouldn't. Period. But what does that say about the husband...?

Some of the greatest spiritual truths I've learned have come from women. God has used wonderful women to pray with me, give me godly advice, and to tell me what I've needed to hear - not just in private conversation, but in the church.

Treating others the way I want to be treated should start with my marriage. If I want to be used of God, shouldn't I allow for my wife be used of God too? If obedience and subjection are the key issues, how does that change if a husband gives all the liberty to his wife he allows for himself and others? It changes everything. I'm not talking about asking endless questions - like some of us men can do - but if a woman has the gift of prophecy, teaching or exhortation, why not give her room to edify the church?

"But Pat, you don't know my husband. He's a obstinate jerk."

Then why did you marry him?

If submission to your husband seems difficult, then consider how the Creator of the Universe took on the form of a servant, and humbled himself to his own creation. He submitted to Joseph and Mary, the laws of God and man and even the butchery of crucifixion. He's the example we need to follow.

Wives submitting to husbands is absolutely biblical. So is the command for men to love their wives. I think a man can show great love to both his wife and to the church by allowing her to teach and preach if he sees that God is with her.

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18 Comments

Aberra

2/20/2011 02:45:46 am

Fantastic. Why Paul emphatically instructed to the church of Ephesus and Timothy? In my opinion especially these two places where the message was sent to them are one place which is Ephesus. Paul has sent the message to Timothy while Timothy was in Ephesus and epistle of Timothy while Timothy was in the same place Ephesus. Why paul repeatedly sending similar message in two different letters? In my opinion, Ephesus is a city of Artemus, Diana, goddess. In this city there might be the superiority of females because of the goddess. Even I had been read one upon a time an article which says: "Females are creator because of a capacity of giving a birth" That is why paul making an apologetic: who was the first to be fallen? Who was the first to be created? A man or a woman? Anyways, here is an additional question: Why Paul didn't deal in other epistles about this issue? Still I want to be clear on this issue! Love and respect,
Tekle, Ethiopia.

Patrick Sipperly link

2/20/2011 02:56:43 am

Aberra - Tekle,

Thanks for commenting! To your question at the end, my response is that the Bible isn't Paul's Book - it's God's book. I sense that this topic was dealt with adequately with these two sections and others. That's my take...

Lori Boggs

2/21/2011 01:58:13 am

As difficult as it is to hear, or read for that matter, you write the truth. I stumble all the time with this, I tend to be a little headstrong and independent ;-) which is fine in many areas, but absolutely not in the following of Christ. I believe many women offer important ministries in and out of Church. I cringe however, when women are in high authority within the Church, especially as Priests or Pastors because it is definitely not condoned by the Bible. Women in Old and New Testament times are called to ministry in so many different ways. They were and still are so important in God's work. None of what you referenced should make any woman feel like they are not allowed to minister in many ways, there are just a few ways that it is unacceptable. I liked your post, my hackles were riled for only a moment and then just because I continue to struggle with this. Good Job Pat!

Alicia

2/22/2011 02:01:37 am

Pat,

Thanks for the post. I struggle often on if I should speak in church. As you know my husband doesn't attend church and so it is difficult to be sure what I should be doing. I pray that God will cover me in everything that I do and help me to be sure that I'm in his will.

Funny as it may sound the other part submitting to your husband is easy when your husband loves you like Christ loved the church and it really seem to me like my does.

Allen Kirk

3/4/2011 12:17:23 am

Brother Pat,
I love your heart and appreciate so much your sharings. But I do have reservations here. I think the worship in the temple speaks to us in types for us today to consider regarding a holy worship. Your excellent explainations on baptism, for example, speaks to both the location, purpose, and purification of the priests entering into the temple. I beleive that God intended for us to understand that there is a time and place for holy worship that is distinct and seperate from "common" life. We have David playing all sorts of musical instruments in praise of his God but we with one exception we never find any such instrument being played in the temple leading us to Paul's direction in the matter "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord"... true worship is heart worship. The same is true for women speaking in the time of sacred worship. What was good and right for Pricilla to join her husband in better educating Apollos concering his preaching would have been inappropriate during the time of called worship. As much as I appreciate the emphasis on the church being His people and not on a building one concern of mine is that we may too easily mix what is "common" with what is "sacred". In our sacred worship our women do not speak because of Paul's instructions for them not to do so. But that doesn't limit them at all in sharing in our "love feasts" (better known as Sunday dinner or pot-lucks) or to share their feelings and thoughts thru our afternoon together or on other occasions. I feel like the question is primarily addressed by the time and pupose for the occasion. The only way to make sense of Paul's instuctions that older women should teach the younger women and at other times remain silent I beleive is to understand there are "common" activities and there are "sacred" activites. Thus Paul gives instruction in one situation to teach and in another to be silent and in apply that standard we can be without compromise to recieve his admiration "For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil."

Thanks for considering my thoughts... enlighten me where my vision is dark.

Love ya brother!

3/4/2011 01:46:50 am

Allen,

You bring up a number of things to consider for sure, and I thank you for sharing them. As much as I love the Old Testament and regularly harken back to it for understanding, I'm wondering if everything translates into the New Testament church as you've described. Again, I'm wondering...not arguing.

Allow me to tread lightly and ask you a few questions for my own clarification.

You say that “true worship is heart worship.” Is that what the Bible says? I ask that because John 4:23-24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

It appears to me that true worship, or true worshipers are those who worship in spirit and in truth. Yes, our heart needs to be there and not our lips only, but there's a broader point I'm making. What does the Bible actually say?

Let take this a little further. You say that one of your concerns is “that we may too easily mix what is "common" with what is "sacred".” Again my question is: Does the NT make such distinctions: “common” and “sacred”? If it does, please show me so I can catch up to you. If it doesn't, then perhaps we shouldn't make such distinctions lest we be in danger of adding to the Word. One verse that comes to mind is what God spoke to Peter: “What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.” (Acts 10:15)

Allow me to restate what I believe to be the crux of the matter concerning women teaching in the church: submission to the husband. If she is permitted, is God glorified or are there problems? Let's examine the fruit, then adjust accordingly. Consider this verse and ponder the possibilities...

And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. (Philippians 4:3)

3/6/2011 10:41:50 am

Pat,
I think your Philippians reference has a lot to say about the benefit of our sisters... the thought that Paul could have made three missionary journeys without someone to ask directions for him probably has limited probability!

I appreciate so much your spirit and join you in the thoughts of going thru continual growth and understanding in the matter. More recently it has been on my heart to better understand the purpose of worship and have concerns that so many are leaving a common gathering of believers because there is no significant vision for such a calling or purpose that seems to be in any way different from “game night” or similar times of fellowship. I have learned that at times I have accepted certain standards and have lived with a variety of expectations that I now believe are very different from the biblical pattern and see evidence of where we have disallowed what I see as a scriptural directive during our participation. At the same time I also see allowances that have been made where scripture places restriction that I am also concerned about. I don’t see one as being necessarily more harmful than another but that both should be avoided as much as can be.

It's not my intentions that my "true worship... heart worship" comment should equate to scriptural authority but rather was an observation that speaks to Christ's fulfillment of the law where the sign of physical circumcision becomes a matter of the heart along with the root concerns to adultery, murder, and so on based in the sermon on the mount.

As to types I think there is a significant, and in my estimation, wonderful parallel in the study of the temple that blends itself harmoniously with the New Testament pattern. But you are quite right to suggest that types are not the basis on which the authority for New Testament practice is made.

Let me divert momentarily to your excellent thoughts pertaining to the "unequally yoked” concern. There have been a variety of occasions when I felt that this verse was being or was in the process of becoming a violation that I felt it a duty as a brother in Christ to address the concern and warn them of what I felt was inevitable consequences for proceeding in the sin. Wither in marriage, business, or other "yoking" I cannot remember the time when the response did not include a pedigree of the unbeliever and why they were worthy of such partnership. "We've known her family all her life, her dad’s... her mom runs the local... and they do a lot of good in the community... " or "Well I understand that he never goes to church and I admit that he uses God's name in vain more than he should but he has told me that he believes in a god of some kind... just needs some time to figure that out... but man he knows how to make money!". The reasoning is endless but the final analysis is the same... because she comes from "good" parents, because he believes in "a god", because his grandparents use to go to church, or because it would just be so painful to ask someone who is attracted to each other to discontinue their relationship until they were spiritually compatible then we have reasonable exception for this union. And so where scripture says “be not unequally yoked” many have made unbiblical exceptions based on self-law that is deemed as equal in merit to God’s law. When God’s standard has been violated there are no limits to any excessive extreme once the threshold of “we have the right to make exceptions” has been crossed. For example I was amazed to find out a couple of years ago that a branch from the tradition I grew up in is now engaged in the fellowship with active homosexuals and that they are held as equals in every way to all others. I believe we can expect this result once we choose to believe that having fellowship with those active in fornication or covetousness, for example, is allowed. If you can allow one such incident based in the wisdom of men then on what basis can you refuse all such incidences?

I feel the same approach is taken with great hazard when dealing with the directive “Let your women keep silence in the churches…” I want to make clear that I believe that the context of the application of these commands is narrow in relative time and circumstance and yet I think scripture is very clear and direct in the matter. That the time in place is “in the churches” I believe limits us in context to the occasions of the brethren being gathered “in their assemblies” as a matter of interpretation. The local congregation may choose to have more than one such assembly but I believe we are to understand that the Lord asks the local congregation to gather together. Without such understanding many verses would make no sense to me if “forsaking not the assembling of yourselves together” did not suggest that there was not an occasion for such a ga

3/6/2011 10:50:36 am

a gathering. I also want to point out that the scripture does not require complete silence (there is nothing forbids the sister from participating in singing in worship to the Lord for example) but silence is required in that matter of speaking. I believe your understanding of submission certainly is causation for Paul’s direction but it is not limited in that regard. Timothy makes clear that they are not to teach the men on this occasion due to the authoritative nature of teaching. It would seem that the authority of the God-head is respected and represented on this occasion that as Christ is subject and under submission to the Father so should a wife be to her husband. I was with a group of believers who enjoyed mutual participative worship that had the belief that women could not teach in their assembly but they were allowed to ask questions. On the occasion of my visit one of the elders of the congregations happened to be addressing some concerns that happened to be centered on inappropriate conduct he felt was being engaged in by some of the sisters and one of the good sisters began to ask questions along the lines of “If the bible says we have liberty who are you to tell us….?” She never made a statement of fact but she dressed him down sternly in front of the whole congregation with her questions. That interaction which includes the opportunity to ask questions existed with our early day brethren is clear to me but Paul’s instructions to the sisters was that if they had questions they were to take them home and ask them of their husbands. Again my experience has been, in discussions with those that allow their sisters to speak “in the churches” that most times they believe that they have adequate reasoning to make an exception to the rule. Often times it is cited how their sisters are less talkative, or how they may only be permitted to speak if their husband is present and permissive, or how they are only allowed to speak under certain circumstance or on special occasions, but they have no requirement for “a woman… to be in silence”. I have no reservations with regards to your notice that we have much to gain from our sisters and I too have learned many valuable lessons from my sisters that I would not want to be without. Just as you’ve indicated that your stand on marriage to unbelievers has been accompanied by personal accusations rather than an attempt to be agreed in the truth we too have had to endure accusations of bigotry and arrogance which is unfortunate to me. I cannot speak for the Lord as to all the reasons this “silence” requirement is made of us, but I can say with confidence that the bible instructs the brethren in Corinth and the evangelist Timothy to require the sisters to remain silent in the matter of teaching when they are gathered for their appointed assembly. And again, we have seen all manner of abuses in many denominations soon after choices were made to allow a woman to speak on a “special occasion” when she became the priest or pastor that would speak on every occasion. I would ask the same question I did with the unequally yoked issue… once you choose one exception on what authority can you limit all exceptions?

I want you to know there is nothing about your understanding of the matter that suggests to me anything besides what I know to be true about you with regards to absolute sincerity and devotion to the truth. And while agreement between us is not required in our present circumstances I love your heart and the many ways you are light and salt in this world and would be very blessed to be of one mind with you on the matter.

God’s blessing to you and I hope you have a great week!

Allen

EE Barkley

4/22/2011 06:05:22 am

Since there are numerous accounts in the NT about women in ministry and even one of the 20+ apostles being a woman, there really is no dispute over women taking a part in the fellowship ministry. They must participate; as they are a part of HIS Body who must act in moving under & with the HOLY Spirit’s anointing to prophecy, to sing songs & hymns and to do what ever else the BOSS wants, the Holy Spirit.
Saying women had no place in the gatherings is what killed the real church 2000 years ago, and also institutionalizing the church. (By men.)

Colossians 3:15-19. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father. Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.

Ephesians 5:25-30. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her (died for her) so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.(Husbands, love your wives and give your life up for them.)

Pastor Carter

5/23/2011 03:34:12 pm

I really humbly thank God for your strength and boldness in Christ' I want to to yeild to the Lord with me and consider the things below:

Let's look at Genesis 3:15,(16) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; (and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee). ...If this was a punishment then it shows that man did not have ruler over us (women) from the beginning. Also not nothing about the woman was cursed only the serpent & the ground b/c God knew that Jesus would come through the woman! God from the beginning has been showing Himself redeeming the woman Deborah, Elizabeth, Phoebe, Miriam, (Mary)
& Priscilla.... If you say that man is over woman, then you agree that we still live under the curse and punishment, even after Jesus death, burial & resurrection! No! Men are not suppose to work to the sweat of your face, In Christ the ground Now must yeild to you/us! (We are one)

The woman since the fall with Eve has been lesson or put down or low. A normal Jewish blessing was: bless be the lord who did not make me a heathen, woman or uneducated person. Jewish rabbis in the 1st century were encouraged not to teach or even to speak with woman, he that talks much with womankind brings evil upon himself & neglects the study of the law & at last will inherit hell. B/C Eve sin men gain ruler over us, this was not the original plan of God! Genesis 3:16
1 Timothy 2:11-(14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Colossians 2:13,14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
**Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,*** which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

**Mark 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
(5 *And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the **hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept**
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but (one flesh). Matthew 19:11 All men cannot receive this saying. save they to whom it is given. Amp. Version: but it is for those to whom the capacity to receive it.

***JESUS STATES THE LAW (A PART OF GOD'S WORD WAS WRITTEN B/C OF THE HARDNESS OF MAN'S HEART***

Revelation 12 (whole chapter) vs 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (note: get it! it is all a setup & plan of our Father!)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I know what you have heard preached & oh' how good it sounded, However the Truth is that satan was not just after the man but YES! The Woman! So a man thinketh so is he! Galatians 3:28 tells us there is nor jew nor greek, no female nor male we are all one in Christ!

Let's look at Genesis 2:21-(23) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Individuals have preached that in relationships looks are a must, b/c of what Adam said, however not all true, as a matter of fact it wasn't until the fall that they even knew they were naked! And the lust of the eye had not entered in yet. So don't miss the revelation of what Adam was saying!

Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated, and again due to the fall and
Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching.....
, I Corinthians 11:3 means to simply put it: Man came from Christ, woman came from man and Christ came from God. It is the origin of each ones identity of being "brought forth" and how we are divinely connected to one another. Being that Jesus is the (Second Adam), He is a representation of the "new birth". This scriptural text is a Spiritual guide to the rebirth of the existence of US being made in HIS image and likeness...the formula of the beginning there was...

1 Timothy 5:11-16 Pual was talking to the young widows to keep them from becoming idle & waxing cold in the Lord!!!

5/23/2011 03:57:32 pm

Thank you so much for taking the time and reading, blessings upon all that you do in the Lord..

Keep praying' Keep loving' keep trusting' keep going forth... the best is yet to come....

Daudi Msimbe link

2/18/2012 07:38:09 pm

Greetings in the Powerful name of Jesus Christ ,

It is my hope your well and you continue better with God's work. Also we are together spiritually and freshly. We continue better with God's work.

I 'm pastor Daudi Thomas Msimbe and my wife Georgina we are Founders & Directors of a church of Great Vision Pentecostal and Ministry of People Shipping Centre (by leadership of the holly spirit) since 2003 we started this work of God and now we have nine years in the ministry , but now is already registered by country laws.

Our registration number is so. 14120. Also we have no permanent place
for worshiping God. We have some place we pay for every month.

The purpose of this letter to you servant of God is to need friendship (please read the book of Malachi 2:7) So that to be have benefit together in the body of Christ and God's work continue forward means all we are unity in body of Christ(1 Corinthians 12:7,12-27) I and My church and I we need Contacts So that we need saving God with you together
.
Thank you for your cooperation between you and our ministry.

We expect you to give us your program and ways how to to do the work of God, And if possible to send kinds of spiritually books and tracts for evangelism.

So that the work of God can continue well and growth because I know our country is peacefully Greet all believers in the name of the Lord (1 Thess 5:26) first of all we need your prayers.

You are most welcome to Arusha Tanzania in East Africa

Have a blessed day

Senior Pastor Daudi Thomas Msimbe

Founder & Director

GVPC & MPSC

P.O Box 13437 Arusha-Tanzania

Tel:+255 754 22 84 77
+255 755 56 54 73
+255 787 14 78 33

Attached herewith please find the following; *Our Faith

4/25/2012 06:05:52 pm

Jeff O'Neal

8/4/2012 11:37:01 am

It never ceases to amaze me that even people who have their eyes opened to the Truth about Christ and His True Body, the Church will so easily fall, as did Adam and Eve, before the altar of self and feminism. The Word is very clear despite the fact it is both hard for women to submit or remain silent as well as it is for men to solely carry the conversation. But God's Word is abundantly clear and the reason is not solely Paul's nor is it bound by time or culture. Rather it was based on the order of Creation (1 Tim 2:13) and the events of the fall (1 Tim 2:14). Paul made it abundantly clear. It was done in all the churches (1 Cor 14:33b). It was God's Word and not merely Paul's word but it came from God and if anybody does not recognize that, they are not to be recognized (1 Cor 14:36ff).

Paul attested that this is a Command of the Lord (1 Cor 14:37) and John, the Disciple whom Jesus loved, wrote,
“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” (1 Jn 5:1–4 ESV).

It is not hard to reconcile the accounts of women prophesying – the prophesied to their husbands or fathers and the men tested and relayed their prophesy at the next meeting. What beautiful expressions of faith, trust, and love when women listen in silence as their husbands or fathers present their insights to the Body of Christ. That is likely what is inferred in Prov 31: 23, 26, & 31.

8/4/2012 03:27:06 pm

Thank you for you comments, Jeff, though I don't believe I've bowed to feminism. Rather, I'm a fruit inspector. I've seen much good fruit come from biblical teaching whether it's come from a man or a women preacher. Which has driven me back to God looking for answers.

Why would he use Deborah or Hulda the way he did?
Why did an angel go to Manoa's wife and not to Manoa to tell of Samson's birth? That seems dishonoring to the man.
How did those women labor with Paul in the Gospel (Philippians 4:3)

Is it possible that God has used women because a man wasn't obedient? Perhaps. In either case, the women must submit to her husband. If you do not allow your wife to teach, then she must not teach. I've heard truth taught from my wife even before we were married. I've sought the Lord about it and have peace. She is submitted to me, and she has my permission - even encouragement - to teach, share and edify the body of Christ. She is under submission to her husband in doing so. I say that knowing I must give an account of myself to God and will be judged according to the word.

8/4/2012 05:20:17 pm

Thank you as well for your response, Patrick.

So it appears that from your reliance on your own experience and feelings and what you see as exceptions to the commands given by God and relayed by Paul, you are advocating defiance of those clear commands that women are to remain silent. Each man can authorize his wife to defy God’s commands. And what if a man refuses to so authorize his wife to defy the Living God? That would be me. I must be an ogre.

But wait. My wife agrees with me on this. She does not ask me to speak in church. She prefers that I discuss the Word of God with her at home and while we drive to work together each day, then I speak in the assembly for both of us.

Deborah was a rebuke to Barak (Jud 4:9) in accordance to God’s Word to Israel in Isa 3:12.

The whole context around Huldah was the rebelliousness and defiance of the Word of God by Judah. So in a degenerate society, it would only be natural that women would be consulted to guide the nation as prophetesses. Once again, this is Isa 3:12 in action.

God speaking to Manoah through his unnamed wife is completely in line with women being silent in the NT church. My wife regularly reveals God-given insights to me. And I, in turn, share them with my Christian brothers, praising her and giving her credit the whole time.

If we believe God gave Paul the Command that women not speak in the church or teach or have authority over men, then their labors must have been to assist Paul with provisions, perceptions, insights gained from meeting and talking with women in each new town, and insights directly from the Lord. And just as Sarah was an example Peter used to instruct new believers, these women would have been invaluable as examples to new converts along the way.

So your argument is with God, not me. And you are right that you are accountable to God. Just as Adam, you consent and justify and partake as your wife steps forward and speaks, thus making her the one deceived as you willfully violate God’s Command in giving her permission not yours to grant. May I remind you that, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Heb 10:31 ESV).

8/5/2012 04:37:16 am

Jeff,

Please allow me to emphasize that I do not consider my experiences to trump the Word of God nor are they license to defy the scriptures as you suggest. I stand in both awe and fear of his Word, which is why I stated in my earlier reply that my experiences have caused me to go back to the scriptures asking the Lord, "What am I missing here? Why do I see women speak, teach and prophesy (1 Cor. 11:5) in the church and all are edified? Why would God even bother to give women gifts if they shouldn't be used in the church?" In other words, why am I seeing good fruit if this tree shouldn't be allowed to bear fruit?

I do not claim to have perfect knowledge in this subject, but rather offer this post as "here's my take on the matter..." Everyone's comments are appreciated and have done what they're supposed to to: edify and invite us all back to the Word. I think it's important that we take our teachings, traditions and experiences and lay them at the feet of the Word and let his Spirit guide us into all truth.

Perhaps you have a more perfect understanding on this and I need to repent and catch up. On the other hand, it's possible that I've experienced what you haven't and more will be revealed to you. I thoroughly appreciate your command of the scriptures and don't take this or any other subject lightly, yet I have peace about my perspective - at least for now. That may change as I continue to seek the Lord. Let us demonstrate grace to one another as we continue on this narrow way that leads to life.

10/19/2021 05:11:30 pm

Jeff, are you still there? Write me will you? The Lord has been dealing with me about this recently. Email: [email protected]

Thanks!

Women In The Ministry

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Patrick Sipperly

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